I received a long comment in a previous post that deserves more space that I could provide in a comment field. Here is the comment.
Thanks Dave, for taking my response seriously. I agree with the overall theme of your reply; love is key, and this means that the church must take a loving attitude towards homosexuals, within the parameters laid out by the Bible.
Regarding your first point, yes you are right, all have sinned. And if all sin was banned from churches, they would all be empty. Of course those who are trying to avoid sin should be welcome in Christian congregations. When I wrote "open sin", I should have been clearer, and perhaps written "intentional, ongoing and unrepentant sin", as suggested in the video. Im sorry, I rushed what I wrote assuming that everyone would correctly grasp my intended meaning. Certainly celibate homosexual Christians should be embraced as entirely welcome in churches though.
You also write that you "guarantee those responsible for discouraging members of HIS flock will be called to account for it." I think you are right there too. But are you saying I was doing that? I was discouraging sin, as Jesus did, and I was wary that the video was encouraging sin for others - itself a grievous act (ref Mark 9:42). I guess discouragement and encouragement can be a delicate line to tread. But when Jesus told people to stop sinning (eg John 8:11), was he discouraging them?
For your next point that Ill address, Im not sure that I understand you. You wrote "The homosexuals that you know about are the ones that want to be in a committed relationship. They do not want promiscuity." On what basis do you make that claim? Are you claiming to know the homosexuals that I know? How do you know them and what they want? Are they lying when they tell me they want promiscuity? Sorry, I dont understand how you could know who I know - I dont think we have met?
You ask whether I want to turn away homosexuals from the congregation, while welcoming heterosexuals who secretly commit adultery. Well, lets consider that question. Firstly, no I dont want to welcome heterosexuals who secretly commit adultery. However, if Im not aware of what they are doing and they are lying about it, then I have little choice. The same would apply for a homosexual who engages in secret sin. Do I want to welcome those who sin openly? Well where do we set a limit on that? Do we welcome open polygamists, open adulterers, open pedophiles, open rapists ... do we welcome everybody and tell them all that their sin is fine? No, within reason, we dont welcome open ongoing unrepentant sin.
Then you claim that Jesus is the judge rather than people being the judge. Well, you have a point to an extent, in that the Bible does exhort not to judge. But if churches are supposed to completely ignore or accept the sin of those in the congregation, how do you make sense of passages such as 1 Corinthians 5:11?
Later in your reply you claim that loving homosexual relationships never happened in the ancient world. On what basis do you make this claim? Why do you feel, for example, that the relevant statements from Josephus in Against Apion, Book II, agree with your argument?Thank you, Danny, for your response and opportunity to continue this dialogue. Let me preface my comments with some personal information that will help explain my biases. I have a number of close friends that are homosexual.
There is a lesbian couple that lives a few doors down. I have known them for over ten years. I have watched them raise two boys. They are great neighbors. Their sons are great kids, play sports, help around the house, and are friends with other kids their age in the area. The subject of religion has come up and they attend a local church. That is the extent of any theological discussion with them. Usually, we talk about gardening and chickens. One of the women knows organic gardening to the last detail and they have two hens. Me, I am a newbie doofus trying to get into growing more vegetables and thinking about chickens (which my wife has thus far vetoed as insane).
I have been friends with a fantastic artist and his partner for over twenty years. These gentlemen are around 70 years old and have been together for over thirty years. Both have battled cancer and financial setbacks together. My son has cancer and the artist (himself battling advanced prostate cancer) has taken great pains to encourage and lift the spirits of my son. I did not engineer it; he just did it because he is a very empathic person. He and his partner were both raised Catholic. They love the Lord and the Church, but have not been to services out of fear of rejection. While they know can attend services in church that welcomes same sex couples, but they are Catholics at heart and love the rituals. They have a wall of crosses and are very much red letter Catholics.
I also have homosexual friends in the congregation. One woman comes alone to services and frankly I have never asked her if she has a partner. She always offers a big hug after services. We chat during social hours and church dinners. I do not care who she is dating. Another woman has a partner who is not religious so she comes to services alone. The level of conversation about her partner amounts to comments where she will express gratitude for her partner to deal with some crisis. There is also a lesbian couple with a children that I know to say hello and that's about it.
I cannot conceive of doing anything or saying anything to these people that might hurt them. I see no reason not to accept them with open arms. They love the Lord and they follow His teachings. They radiate God' love for others. They are generous, compassionate, loving, gracious, honest, and open in their interactions with me and others. They are faithful to their partner. I do not see a reason to be disapproving of them in any way.
A pastor friend and I discussed a case in his congregation of a young man with parents that strongly disapproved of homosexuality and he was so conflicted about his attraction to other males that he attempted suicide. The pastor was seeking pastoral care advice in how to minister to this young man and his family. I have no idea how the pastor approached the situation or what the ultimate outcome was.
My other bias is this. I am going to always err on the side of listening to the Lord first. He said I have to love others without exception. He said I am not to focus on the sin of others, but rather clean up my own act. I am perfectly willing to stand before the Lord and say without reservation that I tried to love others and not stand judgment on the sin of others. I am not about to put something written by Moses or Paul above His teachings. Jesus was perfect; Moses and Paul were described as far from perfect. Jesus is God's only son. Moses and Paul were just dedicated servants.
If I take the words of the Lord to heart, then when in doubt, I will err on the side of love and acceptance rather than harm and judgment. If I try to massage something from Leviticus or Romans as an excuse to hurt or judge someone, I better be perfect in my application. Otherwise, the Lord will not be happy. Jesus said He would be the judge and my job is to love others and be a witness to God's love.
These are my biases. This is the prism through which I view the issue of homosexuality.
The first point you raise is about repentance. To your way of thinking, there is nothing wrong with being attracted to people of the same sex as long as they do not act on it. Is that the Lord's condition or yours? Leviticus states that homosexuality offends God. That means it is up to the person and the Lord to work out an accommodation of how they are to act to best satisfy and serve Him. I am not a party to that discussion. The Lord is not going to turn to me and say, "Dave, what do you think I should demand of this person?" They repent to the Lord, not to me.
You have set out a condition for them to be welcome in your congregation. That is, you expect them to be celibate rather than in a committed relationship. Paul practiced celibacy, but did not demand it of others. What is acceptable to the Lord is not clear to me. Having seen committed relationships between same sex partners for many years, the outward appearance of their love for each other and their children is not discernibly different than successful heterosexual couples that I know.
I know of homosexuals that decide to be celibate to honor God. You are saying these people would be welcome and feel comfortable worshiping with you.
Matthew Vines was saying that while he was celibate, he wanted to be in a loving relationship. He poured out his heart in making a very public case for the acceptance of homosexuals in committed relationships. Based on the same sex couples I know, I can understand fully why Matthew wants to be in a loving relationship. In other words, I felt great empathy for him. Empathy is key to loving others as you wish to be loved.
I can understand taking a more prohibitive stance toward adultery. Infidelity always hurts other people. Telling them to stop makes you an advocate for the people being hurt and less of a judge of their sin. Consensual sex between two adults of the same sex is not hurting anyone other than perhaps their relationship with God, but that is up to them to sort out with God.
A dishonest argument is often made that acceptance of same sex relationships would require similar consideration for incest, polygamy, and bestiality. No one is advocating that. Further, it is always dangerous to bring up incest and polygamy since you can find many examples of both in the Old Testament. Moreover, all of the kings of Israel had concubines (sex slaves). The one king held up as a sexual sinner was David. Not for his concubines, but because he lusted after another man's wife, had the man put in a position where he would be killed, and then took the woman as his wife. David spent the rest of his life begging God for forgiveness for his actions.
You are correct in saying that I do not know the homosexuals you know. Perhaps you have only come across people who are just interested in having casual sexual encounters. The only homosexuals I know that are just out for a good time are not drawn to Christ. We have clearly had very different experiences. However, you want to generalize your experience and attitudes toward homosexuals in advocating for celibacy but refuse to accept the witness of others about homosexuals in committed relationships with the Lord and a person of the same sex. Celibacy may be the best approach for the people you know. Of course, that should be for them to decide in prayerful reflection with the Lord, not required as a precondition for you loving and accepting them in the body of Christ.
We had very different reactions to Matthew Vines. I was moved by his love for Christ and desire for loving committed relationship. My reaction was shaped by the people in my life. You were moved to challenge him on theological grounds and were advocating celibacy based on your experiences. You challenged him in a a comment as well as challenged others that agreed with him. You also came here to challenge me because I supported him.
I concede that there are homosexuals for whom celibacy may be the best option. However, I disagree that it should be the only option. And we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I do feel led by the Holy Spirit to welcome all those desire to join the body of Christ and love them as the Lord instructed. I also feel blessed to have examples of same sex couples living in faith and personal commitment.
As for 1 Corinthians 5, Paul does advocate confronting sexual immorality among the believers. It is not clear exactly what he had in mind, but he does mention a man sleeping with his father's wife. Which I assume means the woman is not his mother but rather another of his father's wives. I can safely assume that homosexual and heterosexual promiscuity falls within the category of sexual immorality.
As I said before, I will always err on the side of obeying the Lord over trying to follow Paul. Paul was a genocidal maniac that was responsible for having followers of Christ arrested and put to death. The Scripture records his imperfection. If I cannot reconcile something Paul said with the teachings of the Lord, I will always to put love first. There is no parallel command from the Lord to judge the believers. Paul had a judgmental streak that lead him to great sin when he was known as Saul, even to the point of having believers in Christ executed. Unlike Paul, Jesus was perfect and told his followers to leave judgment to him.
You are correct that you can find a few examples in the historic record of homosexual relationships, but there are vaguely described and very few in number. It was hardly a prevalent or dominant expression. By contrast, there are many examples of homosexuality limited to acts of hedonism. Moses and Paul both told their followers to avoid homosexuality as commonly practiced in other cultures.
Finally, let me close with a final grave concern. Rachel Held Evans has an interesting discussion of a troubling pattern.
When asked by The Barna Group what words or phrases best describe Christianity, the top response among Americans ages 16-29 was “antihomosexual.” For a staggering 91 percent of non-Christians, this was the first word that came to their mind when asked about the Christian faith. The same was true for 80 percent of young churchgoers. (The next most common negative images? : “judgmental,” “hypocritical,” and “too involved in politics.”)The opposite of evangelism is repulsing people from Christ.
Later research, documented in Kinnaman’s You Lost Me, reveals that one of the top reasons 59 percent of young adults with a Christian background have left the church is because they perceive the church to be too exclusive, particularly regarding their LGBT friends. Eight million twenty-somethings have left the church, and this is one reason why.Evans goes on to describe how the culture wars, particularly the treatment of homosexuals, is driving younger generations from the church. The fruit of the culture war may be a few hollow political victories, but at the cost of failed witness for God's love, mercy, and grace. That should give us all pause.
Peace in the name of Christ
Dave
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