stasisonline was kind enough to comment on the post about Matthew Vines.
But he is asking for special status. Having now made & disseminated this video, he's asking the broad church to ignore the disingenuous nature of this one-sided account of a difficult issue that has already caused division. He's increasing the division by misleading people into thinking his video is balanced. He's also asking for special status in the sense that generally, open sin is not welcomed in churches. For those that think my comments make no sense, I recommend they research both sides of this issue, eg, after watching the video, review a critique of the video such as this one: http://stasisonline.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/homosexual-marriage/
Thank you for stopping by and leaving a comment.
Friend, let me challenge you on several points.
First, the reality is every congregation is filled with sinners. I am a sinner. You are a sinner. The person next to you in the pew is a sinner. Every member of the congregation is a sinner. The choir is filled with sinners. The person in the pulpit is a sinner. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All of us. Not a single one deserves grace. Search your heart, friend. You know that to be true.
Homosexuals are part of the broken and come to church seeking God's glory. They are called by God to seek his company. Let me remind you that churches are merely the houses of God. If you think God will be pleased to see sinners humbly seeking his grace turned away, think again. I promise you that the Lord will be displeased to see those called by the Spirit to HIS body cast out. I guarantee those responsible for discouraging members of HIS flock will be called to account for it.
Most of the sinners in your congregation manage to keep their sins secret. They do not come to Bible study, worship services, or social hours and publicly announce that they cheated customers or committed adultery with a co-worker. They do not stand in front of the congregation and say they spent four hours this week watching porn. No one hears about the lies we tell, the greed we practice, or the harm we bring to others. Unlike homosexuals who announce their presence only when they bring someone they love to church, the other sinners get to keep their sins a secret. Now that is special status.
Understand this clearly. The homosexuals that you know about are the ones that want to be in a committed relationship. They do not want promiscuity. They want to be faithful to their partner. The sexual component of that relationship is confined to a single loving relationship rather than promiscuous or purely hedonic. Do you seriously want to turn away these people while those in your congregation that engage in sex outside of a committed relationship or worse, as a violation of trust of a committed relationship, hide their sexual misdeeds and are welcomed with open arms?
Here is another issue to be very, very, very careful of. Leviticus states homosexuality offends God. That makes the sin between them and God to work out the accommodation. Congregations and pastors are not God. Jesus makes it clear that HE is the judge of HIS flock. Remember that Jesus said he came for the sinners for the saints do not require his help. If He, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, loves these homosexual sinners, then rest assured that he expects the same from the other members of HIS flock. Churches that think they get to make choices about who deserves His grace are broken. Some are even filled with demons.
While homosexual acts were common in the ancient world during the time of the writing of the Old and New Testaments, homosexual relationships were never ever public. Homosexual acts were a common form of recreation, especially for men. Those were not controversial because the men were not viewed as being unfaithful to their heterosexual spouse. Now we have people who want to be a committed homosexual relationship rather than engage in meaningless sexual gratification. I can say with certainty that the scriptures tell me that God is not fond of sexual promiscuity, whether those acts are between members of the same sex or members of the opposite sex. I am far less certain of how God views homosexuality in the context of a loving relationship. That never happened in the ancient world for the Old and New Testament writers to comment on.
I am a sinner. While I try not to make the same mistakes, I find ways of making new ones. That means I have no authority to play judge or jury to the sins of others. I do not get to throw rocks if I truly believe in Jesus. He makes it clear that unless you are perfect, you too are neither judge nor jury. The church is HIS body. We are His eyes, ears, hands, feet, and mouth. We serve Him, not the other way around. We are part of a flock in which no sheep is more valuable than another. All are equal. All are sinners. All have fallen short of the glory of God. ALL. Each and everyone prized.
While homosexual acts were common in the ancient world during the time of the writing of the Old and New Testaments, homosexual relationships were never ever public. Homosexual acts were a common form of recreation, especially for men. Those were not controversial because the men were not viewed as being unfaithful to their heterosexual spouse. Now we have people who want to be a committed homosexual relationship rather than engage in meaningless sexual gratification. I can say with certainty that the scriptures tell me that God is not fond of sexual promiscuity, whether those acts are between members of the same sex or members of the opposite sex. I am far less certain of how God views homosexuality in the context of a loving relationship. That never happened in the ancient world for the Old and New Testament writers to comment on.
I am a sinner. While I try not to make the same mistakes, I find ways of making new ones. That means I have no authority to play judge or jury to the sins of others. I do not get to throw rocks if I truly believe in Jesus. He makes it clear that unless you are perfect, you too are neither judge nor jury. The church is HIS body. We are His eyes, ears, hands, feet, and mouth. We serve Him, not the other way around. We are part of a flock in which no sheep is more valuable than another. All are equal. All are sinners. All have fallen short of the glory of God. ALL. Each and everyone prized.
James 2:8 sums it nicely:
| If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. |
Yours in Christ
Thanks Dave, for taking my response seriously. I agree with the overall theme of your reply; love is key, and this means that the church must take a loving attitude towards homosexuals, within the parameters laid out by the Bible.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your first point, yes you are right, all have sinned. And if all sin was banned from churches, they would all be empty. Of course those who are trying to avoid sin should be welcome in Christian congregations. When I wrote "open sin", I should have been clearer, and perhaps written "intentional, ongoing and unrepentant sin", as suggested in the video. Im sorry, I rushed what I wrote assuming that everyone would correctly grasp my intended meaning. Certainly celibate homosexual Christians should be embraced as entirely welcome in churches though.
You also write that you "guarantee those responsible for discouraging members of HIS flock will be called to account for it." I think you are right there too. But are you saying I was doing that? I was discouraging sin, as Jesus did, and I was wary that the video was encouraging sin for others - itself a grievous act (ref Mark 9:42). I guess discouragement and encouragement can be a delicate line to tread. But when Jesus told people to stop sinning (eg John 8:11), was he discouraging them?
For your next point that Ill address, Im not sure that I understand you. You wrote "The homosexuals that you know about are the ones that want to be in a committed relationship. They do not want promiscuity." On what basis do you make that claim? Are you claiming to know the homosexuals that I know? How do you know them and what they want? Are they lying when they tell me they want promiscuity? Sorry, I dont understand how you could know who I know - I dont think we have met?
You ask whether I want to turn away homosexuals from the congregation, while welcoming heterosexuals who secretly commit adultery. Well, lets consider that question. Firstly, no I dont want to welcome heterosexuals who secretly commit adultery. However, if Im not aware of what they are doing and they are lying about it, then I have little choice. The same would apply for a homosexual who engages in secret sin. Do I want to welcome those who sin openly? Well where do we set a limit on that? Do we welcome open polygamists, open adulterers, open pedophiles, open rapists ... do we welcome everybody and tell them all that their sin is fine? No, within reason, we dont welcome open ongoing unrepentant sin.
Then you claim that Jesus is the judge rather than people being the judge. Well, you have a point to an extent, in that the Bible does exhort not to judge. But if churches are supposed to completely ignore or accept the sin of those in the congregation, how do you make sense of passages such as 1 Corinthians 5:11?
Later in your reply you claim that loving homosexual relationships never happened in the ancient world. On what basis do you make this claim? Why do you feel, for example, that the relevant statements from Josephus in Against Apion, Book II, agree with your argument?
Best wishes,
Danny.
Thank you, Danny for your reply. As before, I am having difficulty fitting my response within the character limit of the comment field. I have posted my response to your comment
Deletehere.
Yours in Christ
Dave